Showing posts with label Warren Jeffs. Show all posts
Showing posts with label Warren Jeffs. Show all posts

Saturday, November 22, 2014

Prophet's Prey--A Review

It was important for me to let the CPS know that I had never met nor spoken with any FLDS woman who had not been abused in some form.  Not one.--pg. 271
-Prophet's Prey by Sam Brower is my 8th and final book (for now) in my study of the FLDS (Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints).

-Brower was the private investigator who spent countless hours looking into all the abuse committed by Warren Jeffs and others in the leadership of the FLDS.  He accurately labeled Warren Jeffs with the title, "pedophile prophet".
With the FLDS, the Feds are facing one of the largest organized-crime syndicates in the history of this country.  Some ten to fifteen thousand members support a religion that participates in child abuse, interstate and international sex trafficking, and other crimes in support of their religious dogma.  It is a much bigger gang than Don Corleone ever had in the Godfather movies. 
I have often pondered how the public would react if the same sort of ritualistic crimes that I have investigated within the FLDS had instead centered on a congregation of Satan worshippers.  The only difference is is that Satan worshippers know without a doubt that they are going to be prosecuted to the full extent of the law if they get caught raping a virgin.  If the FLDS crimes had been put in proper perspective, outraged citizens and lawmakers would have demanded action years ago.--pgs. 300-301
-After reading books by many of the victims, it was good to get a comprehensive, overall look at the FLDS.  Brower also put into perspective how outrageous all of the crimes of the FLDS are, but because of the mob mentality of the cult, they have gotten away with things for way too long.

-What I find most reprehensible is that Jeffs and other men raped young children, and did so in the name of God.  I can't think of a more horrific thing to do to another person and then claim that God sanctions it.  The Bible says:
If anyone causes one of these little ones--those who believe in me--to stumble, it would be better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.--Matthew 18:6
-God will hold Jeffs and all the other men accountable for the abuse they have committed.  I couldn't agree more with Brower's conclusion to his book.
We live in a country in which the practice of illegal, arranged incestuous marriage, the sexual exploitation of women and children as part of religious rituals, the trafficking of children across interstate and international boundaries, and the tyranny of breaking families apart has never been tolerated.  

There is no question that great strides have been made in this worthwhile cause, and I have faith in the ultimate outcome; but the lasting changes needed to provide for the safety and security of thousands of children have yet to be achieved.  Until the FLDS hierarchy, whoever that may eventually be, finds the human decency to stand before the world and accept responsibility for their criminal actions, and sincerely apologize to their many victims with a commitment to never again abuse or neglect another child, it will never truly be over.  Until that day, I will remain vigilant.--pg. 311
 Previous FLDS Posts:
The Treatment of Women
Carolyn Jessop--A Portrait of Courage
Triumph
Church of Lies
Studying the FLDS
When Men Become Gods
The Witness Wore Red
Stolen Innocence 
Lost Boy

Saturday, November 01, 2014

Lost Boy--A Review

In the world of the FLDS, things are not always what they seem.  The shiny, smiling surfaces often hide a world of rot and pain.  And even royal blood and being born male can't protect you from sudden changes in its convoluted power structure.--pg. 8
 -The more I read about the FLDS and other cults, the more I see how much they are like countries that are run by dictators.  Dictators and Cult leaders don't allow any freedom for its' members, most believe in communism and/or socialism and the members are brainwashed to believe their lives of slavery are a good thing. 

-Warren Jeffs actually studied Hitler and obviously employed some of Hitler's methods to control people and get them to do what he wanted. 
But while it (polygamy) might seem good in theory, in practice, at least in my experience, its' actually a recipe for misery for everyone involved.  --pg. 8
-Lost Boy by Brent W. Jeffs was another piece in my puzzle of learning about the FLDS.  Up until now I had only read books by the women who had fled and by those who had investigated the FLDS.  Jeffs highlights how polygamy isn't just horrific for the women, young men are also its' victims.

-I recently watched Sons of Perdition, which is a documentary about the many lost boys that either escape or are kicked out of the FLDS.  Hundreds, and possibly close to 1,000 boys have been abandoned by their families at the behest of Warren Jeffs because they were competition for the older men.

-Sons of Perdition and Brent Jeffs' book highlight the many struggles that these boys go through.  Most haven't gotten a good education, because too much time was spent indoctrinating them and also boys are expected to go to work at a young age.  So, once they are in the outside world, they realize how far behind they are.

-Some of the boys have also been victims of abuse, so once they are on the outside, they are prime candidates to become drug addicts and become victims of other illegal activities.

-Brent Jeffs was a direct victim of Warren Jeffs, since Warren raped him and two of his brothers when they were only 5 years old.  It is hard to fathom just how many lives Warren Jeffs has completely destroyed.  Brent's older brother Clayne, was never able to cope with the sexual abuse at Warren's hands and he committed suicide.

-Clayne's death was a major motivator for Brent to get the help he needed to heal, to bring Warren to justice for his crimes and for Brent to tell his story.

-Below are some more quotes from the book:
I'd never really had a chance to develop my own interests.--pg. 146

It's hard to explain just how strange it is to lose your community, most of your family, and an entire belief system and way of life.--pg. 154

When everyone else around you believes, when every single person you know acts as though something is true, when you have been taught it every day since infancy, it really is hard to stand up.  Being instructed day in and day out to value obedience, to see faith as higher than reason, and to discard independent thinking as a sign of possession by the devil makes it even more difficult.--pg. 168
By now, it was clear to me how Warren had turned the FLDS from a strange religion into a dangerous cult.  The difference is this: whereas a religion may have weird beliefs and practices, a dangerous cult uses a combination of seemingly innocuous techniques to control people.  It usually has a charismatic leader who is seen as the source of all wisdom and salvation.  Such groups can actually push normal people to do bizarre things that they would never dream of doing on their own.--pg. 225

When women are seen as second-class citizens, I don't think polygamy can be anything but abusive.--pg. 226
-I regard Brent Jeffs as another hero like the women I have written about.  He too, escaped and went on to face many obstacles, but stood up for himself and many others, so that there might be at least a little justice for the many victims of the FLDS.

Previous FLDS Posts:
The Treatment of Women
Carolyn Jessop--A Portrait of Courage
Triumph
Church of Lies
Studying the FLDS
When Men Become Gods
The Witness Wore Red
Stolen Innocence

Friday, October 24, 2014

Stolen Innocence--A Review

This trial has not been about religion or a vendetta.  It was simply about child abuse and preventing further abuse.
I hope that all FLDS girls and women will understand that no matter what anyone may say, you are created equal.  You do not have to surrender your rights or your spiritual sovereignty.  I know how hard it is, but please stand up and fight for your voice and power of choice.  I will continue to fight for you.--Elissa's statement after Jeff's 2007 trial (p. 422)
Stolen Innocence by Elissa Wall is my sixth book in my study of the FLDS.  I have read about some amazing women, my next step will be delving into what the "lost boys" have gone through.  I am stunned at what can be done to men and women when they are in a cult.  Yet, we are all susceptible to being indoctrinated and brainwashed.

I have been immensely inspired by the women who have managed to escape the clutches of the FLDS, and even though it wasn't easy, fought to build a life for themselves and their children.

Elissa's story is especially impressive, because she started fighting back at the tender age of 14.  She was forced into marriage with a cousin she hated and was raped repeatedly.  This marriage was orchestrated by her "prophet", Warren Jeffs.  Elissa's father had already been exiled from her family by Jeffs, and her mother and sisters felt powerless to protect her.

She didn't have a way to escape then, and she thought her eternal salvation was at stake, so she stayed, but she didn't stay silent.

In the FLDS, girls and women are told to "keep sweet", which means, no matter how unhappy you are, no matter how badly you are treated, you are to pretend to be happy and be obedient to your "priesthood head".

Yet, Elissa didn't keep sweet all the time, and she actually had the nerve to speak out.  She was fortunate that she had older sisters and brothers who had escaped before her, and eventually she was able to be set free.  It wasn't easy, she had to leave behind her mother and two younger sisters.

It took years, but she even ended up being a star witness along with her sister, Rebecca Musser at Warren Jeffs' first trial in 2007.

Below are some significant quotes from her book:
Our religion left no room for logical reasoning and honest questioning.--p. 44

Without my nurturing older sister around, I had no one to make me feel safe in the unrest that had taken over our home and irrevocably changed out lives.--p. 49

I was making the choice that my mother had been unable to make for me and my siblings.  I was choosing to give my child the power of choice.--p.321
Elissa says it best in the last paragraph of her book:
...there are still so many young girls and women who don't yet realize that they, too, have the right to cry out against injustice.  I hope this book reaches the many young girls and women around the world whose faces I'll never see and whose names I'll never know, and that perhaps in some way my words will help them to use their strength to reclaim what is rightfully theirs--the power of choice.
Previous FLDS Posts:
The Treatment of Women
Carolyn Jessop--A Portrait of Courage
Triumph
Church of Lies
Studying the FLDS
When Men Become Gods
The Witness Wore Red

Thursday, October 23, 2014

The Witness Wore Red--A Review


It started with one book, Escape, and my odyssey into studying the FLDS began. It has been therapeutic for me in dealing with my own issues with how those in the church, and other religious organizations treat women.

I was listening to, The Witness Wore Red on Cd while I was reading four of the other books on the FLDS.  It was fascinating as I listened to the different accounts of some of the key players.

I think I was able to relate, on a personal level, to Rebecca's account the most.  For some reason, I was surprised at how difficult things were for Rebecca and her sister Elissa after they escaped.  I think because they escaped before they had children, I thought things would be easier than they were for people like Carolyn, who already had 8 children.

Yet, it makes sense that things would be so hard.  They had been brainwashed and indoctrinated in a certain way for their entire lives.  Also, something that Warren Jeffs and some of the other priesthood men knew, was that even without their own children, they had scores of loved ones in the FLDS that they wouldn't want to leave.  And when you leave the FLDS, you can't just come back and visit relatives, because you are now an apostate and shunned by most of the community.

I was able to relate to Rebecca in her struggles to realize that what she was being taught about the roles of women was wrong.  And also to her trying to survive financially on the outside world.  She then had to deal with a husband who wasn't in the FLDS, but who still had some sexist views.

As I listened to the end of Rebecca's book, it gave me a lot of strength that I could face some of the things in my own life.  She escaped oppression, yet in doing that, she was severely judged by many and told she was going to hell.  We are by nature people pleasers, but sometimes doing what is right for us, will be judged by others, and that is okay.

Previous FLDS Posts:
The Treatment of Women
Carolyn Jessop--A Portrait of Courage
Triumph
Church of Lies
Studying the FLDS
When Men Become Gods

Tuesday, October 14, 2014

When Men Become Gods--A Review


--When Men Become Gods is my 5th book in my study of the FLDS.  I've read Carolyn Jessop and Flora Jessop's accounts, and I'm listening to Rebecca Musser's on Cd.

--The women's accounts were their own personal stories.  In contrast, Singular gives a history and an overview of the FLDS movement.  He share the history of the Mormons, starting with Joseph Smith.

--He then details how things went wrong with some of the modern leaders of the FLDS.  And he shares about the women who started escaping and fighting back, and about the brave few who helped them.  The women and those who helped them were listed by Singular as the "Resistance".

--A list of just some who made up the "Resistance":
1) Flora Jessop--One of the many women who escaped and fought back
2) Sam Brower--A private investigator
3) Elaine Tyler--She assisted women who were trying to escape the FLDS, and she founded the Hope Organization.
4) Gary Engels--An investigator hired by Mohave County Attorney Matt Smith
5) Ross Chatwin--A loyal FLDS member who was kicked out by Warren Jeffs.  He was one of the few men who chose to fight back.  Most of the time Jeffs took away these men's homes and wives and children.  But Chatwin refused to leave his home, and his wife and kids stayed by his side instead of obeying Jeffs.
6) The Lost Boys--Teenage boys who were kicked out of the FLDS, so that the older men have more women to choose from.
--As I've studied all that has gone into the FLDS being exposed, I have been upset that Flora Jessop hasn't been given more credit for her role.  Below is Singular's description of her, and I think it's a good one:
Every revolution produced somebody like Flora Jessop: a flamethrower who jolted others into action.  She had a knack for inspiring victimized women to come forward--and for turning off strong FLDS opponents and embarrassing the police or other authorities.  In the absence of any organized effort to enforce the law along the border for the past several decades, Flora, like Laura Chapman before her, had stepped forward and done what others wouldn't.  Nobody else had wanted to take the risks to help the men, women, boys, girls, and childhood victims of polygamy--least of all the Latter-day Saints church up in Salt Lake City.--p. 121

--As the government authorities and members of the resistance tried to figure out how to bring the members of the FLDS to justice, they had some concerns.  They feared a Waco or Jonestown catastrophe.  The governments of Arizona, Utah and the Federal government were afraid to tackle the many crimes that were being committed in the FLDS community.  Yet, finally something needed to be done. The FLDS wasn't above the law and questions started to be raised by many, below are some:
What about the rising costs of welfare and of treating fumarase deficiency?  What if citizens across the nation with no connection to Mormon fundamentalists had to pick up the tab for other people's very expensive marital and sexual practices?  What if a religious sect on the Utah-Arizona border were being run like a criminal enterprise, similar to the mafia?  Or like a terrorist outfit, answerable only to its Prophet?--p. 115

--Singular shares how the authorities finally go after Jeffs, eventually putting him on the FBI's 10 Most Wanted List.  And about the 3 sisters who testified against him, Elissa Wall, Theresa Wall and Rebecca Musser.

--Elissa Wall was forced into marriage when she was barely 14 and was raped by her husband.  Not only was this Jeffs' idea, but he refused to listen to her many cries for help and told her to "keep sweet" and submit to her husband.

--When Jeffs was declared guilty by a jury of his peers, several of the heroic women who stood up against him had this to say:
This wasn't just lawyering in the courtroom, this was justice.--Elaine Tyler

Opinion is a fleeting thing, but truth outlasts the sun.--Elissa Wall quoting Emily Dickinson
--Laura Chapman (one of the first women who fought back) was happy with the verdict, but warned people that the fight against the FLDS was far from over:
So much is still lacking in terms of accountability...Elissa Wall's parents not only failed to protect her but prepared a child in a wedding dress for her abuser.  They are culpable by law and should be charged.  If Warren Jeffs has 80 wives, and birth certificates of his 264 children prove this, he should be charged with 79 counts of bigamy...He was not charged for violating the Mann Act (taking a minor across state lines for sexual purposes).  Elissa was taken to Nevada to be married.  Jeffs should be held accountable for the human trafficking of women and children to Canada...

An apology should be issued to the thousands of people, over 160 years, who have lived in extreme conditions of poverty, emotional and spiritual abuse, sexual coercion and assault because of this doctrine that places men as superior over women.  Since the LDS church is one of the wealthiest religious organizations in the world, they should fund non-profit organizations to provide resources for refugees of polygamy.  They should no longer allow a man to be sealed for time and all eternity to more than one woman.

Thursday, October 09, 2014

Studying the FLDS (Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints) Cult

The above photo is Flora Jessop with her sister Ruby Jessop.  Flora had worked for many years to help Ruby escape, and they were finally successful.

--Since, I watch a lot of true crime shows, I started seeing shows about the horrific abuses in the polygamous FLDS cult years ago.  Every time I would see a show, I would write down the books and authors that were mentioned on the show.

--Recently, I started reading one of the books and I was hooked and wanted to learn more.  So far, I have read the following books and done posts on them:
1) Escape--Carolyn Jessop
2) Triumph--Carolyn Jessop
3) Church of Lies--Flora Jessop
--I am in the middle of reading:
4) The Witness Wore Red--Rebecca Musser
5) When Men Become Gods--Stephen Singular
--On my list to read:
6) Stolen Innocence--Elissa Wall
7) Lost Boy--Brent W. Jeffs
8) The Polygamists: A History of Colorado City, Arizona--Benjamin Bistline
 
--As I've learned more, especially after reading Flora Jessop's book, I wanted to see some of the people I was reading about.  So, I found some good documentaries online.

--When I'm finished with all of the books, and when I'm done researching, I will do a comprehensive post on the FLDS. 

 
--It is important to educate people about what is going on.  As I was talking about this at work, a friend just assumed I was talking about a group in a third world country.  I said, no, this is going on right here in the U.S.

Resources:
-Rebecca Musser: Choose to be Free
-Child Protection Project
-The Hope Organization

Tuesday, October 07, 2014

Church of Lies--A Review

It's amusing how many people now want to take credit for the fall of Warren Jeffs.  It's a seductive story.  Everybody wants to be seen as the hero...

But Flora Jessop--well, she's the real McCoy--one of the original warriors and genuine heroes.  In fact, in many ways, Flora Jessop and a childhood friend of hers from Colorado City are truly Arizona's Founding Mothers of this hard-fought, human rights revolution.  A campaign that had to overcome more than a half-century of institutionalized neglect and indifference on the part of Utah and Arizona officials before a man like Warren Jeffs could finally be brought to justice.

There are people who might dispute that claim--but I would argue that they are people who either don't really know the story or are lying to cover their own asses.--Mike Watkiss
--After reading Carolyn Jessop's two books, Escape and Triumph, about the abuse in the FLDS polygamous cult, I decided I wanted to learn more.

--Flora Jessop is Carolyn Jessop's cousin, since most of the FLDS community are related to each other.  Flora escaped long before Carolyn, while she was still a teenager.  Flora was being sexually assaulted by her father from a very young age.  She tried to escape numerous times before she was eventually successful.

--Flora's book details her early childhood, her escape from the FLDS cult and her struggle to live a normal life afterwards.  She eventually finds peace and a good life in the outside world.  It is then that she begins to help many other women and teenagers who want to escape from the FLDS as well.

--The more I learn about the FLDS cult, the more like the mob they seem.  They indoctrinate, brainwash and abuse their members in order to keep them imprisoned.  They don't want you to escape to tell the truth, so they manipulate and try to control your every move.  If you do escape, they hunt you down and try everything in their power to force you to return.

--The women that are able to escape intact, are some of the bravest and most courageous warriors I have ever seen.

--Flora Jessop is the Executive Director of The Child Protection Project, which is an amazing organization helping many escape their lives of abuse in the FLDS.

--To this day, Jessop continues to fight for victims of abuse, wherever they may be.  As Mike Watkiss says, she is one of the "original warriors and genuine heroes" of this movement.

Saturday, September 27, 2014

Triumph--A Review

But if I could find the strength not to bow to an evil system, I could at least hold on to my self-respect.  
If you understand what you're doing and why, an abuser can never wholly control you.--pg. 148 of Triumph
--I have done 2 posts about Carolyn Jessop and her first book, EscapeShe is an inspirational woman of courage.  I read her first book, Escape, and couldn't put it down.  I knew I needed to read her second one, Triumph.

--It has been therapeutic to read how she escaped a life and marriage that involved emotional, verbal and physical abuse on a level that most people can't imagine.  She was indoctrinated to believe that all of the abuse was okay, and that she was evil if she wanted to stand up to it or even escape from it.

--It has helped me process my own thoughts and beliefs about how people can misuse religion to sometimes lead women into bondage and keep them there. I talk about this in my post, The Treatment of Women.

--Jessop's first book is all about her growing up in the FLDS cult and how she escaped.  Her 2nd book is about the aftermath.  She is able to take on the FLDS and win, not once, but twice.
Winning custody of my children built a bridge halfway across the ravine.  Winning child support completed the job.  I hope the landmark ruling in my case is an inspiration to all women in difficult or abusive relationships.  You can stand up to a perpetrator and win.--p. 246
--She learns how to stand on her own two feet, and find real, unconditional love.  She has inspired me and empowered me in my own life.

--Below, are some more of my favorite quotes from the book:
Within that first year of my marriage, the family saw me as an out-of-control member because I refused to submit totally to its power elite.  While this was often an uncomfortable position.  I possessed something no one else in the family had: the real power that flows from self-respect.--p. 149

Bedrock Beliefs
1) Claim the power of no
2) Set your own standards
3) Hold on to whatever power you do have
4) Forget about perfection, do the best you can
5) Do whatever it takes to protect those you love

Victimhood requires our acquiescence, and I was opting out.--p. 161

I no longer wanted to fix the people who had hurt me.  I released them all to their miserable and mean-spirited worlds.  I was setting myself free and the effort was empowering.--p. 191
I especially found her thoughts on forgiveness to be life-changing:
It's been said that desiring revenge is like swallowing poison and waiting for someone else to die.  I believe that.  It took discipline and work for me to release all the anger I felt toward Merril.  But nothing I'd ever felt compared to the relief of dumping one bad emotion after another.  Go. Goodbye. Gone.  I had no more expectations.  I no longer had to fix anything.  Once I forgave Merril, his power over me evaporated.

I talked about the liberation of forgiveness.  I explained that letting go of my anger did not mean that what had happened to me was okay.  It will never be okay, but I refuse to let the past sabotage my life or curtail my energy, purpose, and joy.  I wanted no ties to my perpetrators; forgiveness cut them all.--p. 194
--There were only 2 things that I disagreed with her on in this book.  1) She voted for Obama and talked about how wonderful that was (LOL).  But I am excited for her that got to experience the privilege of voting.

2) She has some strong views on how homeschooling should be more regulated by the government.  She thinks this would help there be less educational abuse within cults like the FLDS.  Cults don't adhere to any kinds of laws, such as marrying only one wife, sexual and physical abuse, etc...How would having more government regulations keep the FLDS in check?  I don't think it would, and as we all know, more government power grabs can lead to abuse of people by them.

--Other than that, the book was amazing.  A final quote:
In the fabric of our own lives, sometimes there are colors we don't want and threads we didn't choose, but the pattern that emerges is distinctly our own.--p. 256

Tuesday, September 16, 2014

Carolyn Jessop--A Portrait of Courage


--At 18 years of age, Carolyn Blackmore was forced to marry 50 year old Merril Jessop. She became his 4th wife. Even though she got violently ill with each pregnancy, and the last 4 endangered her life, she gave birth to 8 children.  One of whom had numerous medical needs, and required 24/7 care.

--She lived with abuse for 17 years. Her husband was physically, emotionally and verbally abusive.  He also manipulated his other wives to punish her for not being an "obedient wife".

--She finally became disillusioned with the FLDS and polygamy.  She started planning her escape in the year 2000, and was successful on April 21, 2003.

--She was the first woman to gain full custody of her children after leaving the FDLS community.


--Carolyn Jessop has written two books, Escape and Triumph: Life After the Cult--A Survivor's Lessons.  A movie was made based on her life, In God's Country.

--I have always known that polygamy was oppressive and abusive towards women and children, but I was horrified as I learned of Carolyn's story.  I am just flabbergasted that so many men, women and children can be brainwashed so completely.

--In the FLDS, everything in a woman's life is about pleasing and obeying her husband (her priesthood head).  It is through her husband that a woman is able to get to heaven.  So, the man's needs are not only more important than a woman's, but even more important than the children's needs.

--I was shocked to hear about how the children were sexually and physically abused and neglected.  The wives couldn't risk displeasing their husbands (because that would endanger their chance of getting into heaven), so children were often neglected as a result.

--Carolyn's ability to not only survive years of brainwashing and abuse, but to escape from it is a profile in courage.  She is a heroine for women of all walks of life.

Friday, September 12, 2014

The Treatment of Women!


--Right now I am listening to the book, Escape by Carolyn Jessop on CD.  It is making me think a lot about the roles of women.

--It is sickening to hear how women and girls are treated in polygamy.  I have always known it would be horrible, but it is worse than I could've imagined.  Women have absolutely NO rights in the FLDS polygamous world.

--Teenage girls are forced to marry men that are usually 30-40 years older than them.  Up until that time they are never allowed to be around boys unsupervised, and are never taught about sex.  So, on their wedding night they are essentially raped, and have no way of seeing it coming.

--Few women are allowed to get an education past high school, and their high school education is often very poor.

--I didn't realize how the many small children would end up being neglected, but it makes sense.  Jessop describes how in the family she was forced to marry into, the other wives neglected the 30 plus children because one wife was mentally ill (and not being treated for it), another was rejected by the husband so she would spend all day in her room, and the other wives were vying for the husband's attention.

--As I listen to this sickening hell that these women were subjected too, I started to think about the women in the muslim culture.  Especially, in the Middle East and Africa, but also here in the U.S. strict muslim families require women to be covered head to foot and they literally have no freedom and no rights.

--I will also admit that in some corners of Christian society, women don't have the freedom and rights that they deserve.  I look at how I've  lived over the past 40 years, and I realize that I lived according to rules that I thought were Biblical, but now I think were more man made to keep women submissive.

--I really like the title of Jessop's book, Escape, because it highlights that women have the right to escape from any situation that is infringing upon her freedom and rights.  It only took me 40 years to have the courage to say it.